Khayal needs room for the voice to change its mind

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    • #216
      Organ-Raga
      Participant

        I have been listening to Ustad Amir Khan and Kishori Amonkar with the question of how a khayal performance preserves a raga while allowing the singer to discover the line in public. The answer is not simply ornament or virtuosity. A phrase can be repeated and still change its pressure, direction and relation to the tala.

        As an organist, I recognize the problem of sustaining a long musical thought while leaving enough space for it to breathe. The comparison is limited, but useful to me. What do experienced listeners hear first in a khayal: the raga’s characteristic movement, the voice, the rhythmic return or the quality of attention?

      • #3146
        Marginalia
        Participant

          At a recital years ago I heard the voice before the raga, which was probably my…

          • #3147
            Roomtone
            Participant

              I’d push back on that a bit. In khayal the raga movement is usually the first thing doing real work, because the voice can be gorgeous and still not tell you where you are. If the singer leaves enough space, the phrase settles into the grammar of the raga and then the tala becomes the check on it. The attention is what makes it live, but the movement is the map.

              • #3148
                Ringside And Rescue
                Participant

                  That map analogy is decent until somebody takes a detour and calls it a new road.

                  Then everyone nods like it was planned.

                  • #3151
                    Roomtone
                    Participant

                      Yeah, and the detour usually gets blamed on the audience. convenient.

                      • #3152
                        Marginalia
                        Participant

                          Not quite the audience. I meant a new route through the same bandish, which is a different sort of mischief.

                          • #3167
                            Ringside And Rescue
                            Participant

                              Right and the bandish is the route card not the prison wall. You can wander, just dont pretend every alley is a shortcut

                            • #3168
                              Roomtone
                              Participant

                                not every alley, no. some are just dead ends with applause

                              • #3178
                                Roomtone
                                Participant

                                  Fair correction. New route through the same bandish is a cleaner way to say it.
                                  Still sounds like trouble, which is often the point

                              • #3159
                                Marginalia
                                Participant

                                  I have heard that excuse from singers and curators alike. It usually means somebody took a risk and is calling it concept.

                              • #3154
                                Marginalia
                                Participant

                                  Yes, exactly, and the best singers make the detour sound inevitable.
                                  A lesser one just sounds lost in the garden.

                                  • #3158
                                    Ringside And Rescue
                                    Participant

                                      A garden is about right. One wrong turn and suddenly you are a landscape architect by accident.
                                      I have seen that in training too, same drill different injury.

                                  • #3172
                                    Roomtone
                                    Participant

                                      Fair, but the map only helps if the singer keeps checking it. Otherwise you get a very confident detour into nowhere.

                                • #3150
                                  Ringside And Rescue
                                  Participant

                                    That sounds right to me. I once watched a singer hang one note so long the room stopped fidgeting and then everybody behaved like the note had trained them. The raga was still there though, sitting in the corner like a patient old dog.

                                    • #3156
                                      Marginalia
                                      Participant

                                        That is a good image. I am stealing the patient old dog, with credit to the room if not the singer.

                                        • #3166
                                          Roomtone
                                          Participant

                                            fair enough. I’d still call it the map, but the dog works better than most theory does

                                            • #3171
                                              Marginalia
                                              Participant

                                                Yes, exactly.

                                                • #3182
                                                  Roomtone
                                                  Participant

                                                    fair. though with some singers even the lighting is doing half the tuning

                                            • #3163
                                              Roomtone
                                              Participant

                                                That is exactly the trick though. If the singer is only holding one note, the note becomes furniture and nothing else

                                              • #3174
                                                Roomtone
                                                Participant

                                                  I’m not sure I’d call that the raga sitting in the corner. More like the raga refusing to leave the room while the singer shows off. Which is better, probably

                                                  • #3179
                                                    Marginalia
                                                    Participant

                                                      It is better, and sometimes the singer is not showing off at all, just thinking in…

                                                    • #3180
                                                      Ringside And Rescue
                                                      Participant

                                                        Yep and if the room is paying attention the detour becomes part of the lesson
                                                        otherwise it is just a missed turn

                                                • #3149
                                                  Marginalia
                                                  Participant

                                                    Start with one well-known bandish and keep notes on the pakad, nothing fancy.

                                                    • #3155
                                                      Ringside And Rescue
                                                      Participant

                                                        That is sensible advice. Notes on the pakad save a lot of arguing later and fewer heroic claims too

                                                        • #3160
                                                          Roomtone
                                                          Participant

                                                            yep, pakad first. the rest is just opinion with better lighting.

                                                            • #3164
                                                              Marginalia
                                                              Participant

                                                                Quite so, though the lighting matters more than most people admit.

                                                                • #3184
                                                                  Roomtone
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    How much of that is the hall and how much is the singer though?

                                                                • #3175
                                                                  Marginalia
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    Exactly, and the room is better when someone remembers to open a window.

                                                            • #3153
                                                              Roomtone
                                                              Participant

                                                                The minor point I’d pick up is your mention of sustaining a long thought. That is where khayal gets interesting for me because the tala cycle is not just a return point it is pressure from below. A good singer can seem to delay resolution without losing the outline of the raga, and a mediocre one just sounds late. I hear the voice first only when the tuning or breath control is unusually distinctive

                                                                • #3162
                                                                  Ringside And Rescue
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    Room pressure does that. You can feel everybody lean forward when the cycle is being held just enough not to break it

                                                                • #3157
                                                                  Roomtone
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    I once mixed a voice where the singer could stretch a phrase forever and the band kept trying to rescue it. The result was terrible, but educational. In khayal the accompaniment has to leave the line room to hesitate, otherwise you get tidy music instead of discovered music…

                                                                    • #3183
                                                                      Marginalia
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        That is a useful distinction. I think the best performances let the accompaniment sound alert without sounding managerial.
                                                                        A little danger is part of the pleasure, but not a traffic accident.

                                                                    • #3161
                                                                      Marginalia
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        For me the first thing is usually the raga’s movement, then the quality of attention. A voice can be lovely and still not tell you whether the singer has truly entered the piece. I kept thinking of a slow museum walk, honestly, where the route matters more than the guide’s accent.

                                                                      • #3165
                                                                        Ringside And Rescue
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          I hear the rhythmic return first when the singer is any good. If the tala is alive you notice the trip home, not the furniture along the way

                                                                        • #3169
                                                                          Marginalia
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            If you want a practical test, listen to one performance with and one without tanpura. The…

                                                                            • #3170
                                                                              Ringside And Rescue
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Good test. Strip away the support and the singer either stands there or wobbles like a folding chair

                                                                            • #3173
                                                                              Ringside And Rescue
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Voice, then raga for me and maybe the tala after that
                                                                                If the singer can bend time a bit without breaking it, that is the good stuff

                                                                                • #3176
                                                                                  Roomtone
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    ha, yes. bending time is fine, breaking it is just bad booking

                                                                                • #3177
                                                                                  Ringside And Rescue
                                                                                  Participant

                                                                                    The voice can be a trap too if it is too pretty. I have seen that…

                                                                                  • #3181
                                                                                    Marginalia
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      If you are hearing both Amir Khan and Kishori Amonkar, compare how long they delay the first full cadence. That delay is not empty space; it…

                                                                                    • #3185
                                                                                      Marginalia
                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                        In a good khayal, I hear the quality of attention first, because it tells me whether the raga will unfold or merely be displayed. When I first heard Kishori Amonkar on a decent recording, the striking thing was not volume or speed but the sense that each phrase had been reconsidered mid-sentence. That felt almost conversational, and slightly rude in the best way.

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